Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

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Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Marc-André Laperle

Hi,


I started to look at the failing tests on Windows. One thing that came up is the autootols tests looking for autoconf, automake. It will be the same for dsf-gdb which needs gdb. My question is... what should be used? There old MinGW, MSYS, Mingw-get (just a package manager for original MinGW?), Cygwin, MinGW 64, MSYS2, etc. I'm a bit lost on what should be used and more officially support. Or at least, what to use for tests?

Is the general consensus that MSYS2 is the way to go?


Thank you,

Marc-André


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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Doug Schaefer-3
From what I can tell, only MSYS2 has an active community any more, at least the last time I checked a few months ago. That’s why I tend to lean that way.

Doug.

From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marc-André Laperle <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM
To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
Subject: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Hi,


I started to look at the failing tests on Windows. One thing that came up is the autootols tests looking for autoconf, automake. It will be the same for dsf-gdb which needs gdb. My question is... what should be used? There old MinGW, MSYS, Mingw-get (just a package manager for original MinGW?), Cygwin, MinGW 64, MSYS2, etc. I'm a bit lost on what should be used and more officially support. Or at least, what to use for tests?

Is the general consensus that MSYS2 is the way to go?


Thank you,

Marc-André


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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Doug Schaefer-3
From what I can tell, only MSYS2 has an active community any more, at least the last time I checked a few months ago. That’s why I tend to lean that way.

Well, I mean amongst the MSYS variants. And really, this has more to do with the w64 fork of the MinGW compilers which are actively maintained. But MSYS2 has a nice collection of other packages as well.

I’m not a big fan of Cygwin because of it’s not a native environment.


Doug.

From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marc-André Laperle <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 10:40 AM
To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
Subject: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Hi,


I started to look at the failing tests on Windows. One thing that came up is the autootols tests looking for autoconf, automake. It will be the same for dsf-gdb which needs gdb. My question is... what should be used? There old MinGW, MSYS, Mingw-get (just a package manager for original MinGW?), Cygwin, MinGW 64, MSYS2, etc. I'm a bit lost on what should be used and more officially support. Or at least, what to use for tests?

Is the general consensus that MSYS2 is the way to go?


Thank you,

Marc-André


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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Liviu Ionescu-2
In reply to this post by Doug Schaefer-3

> On 14 Feb 2017, at 17:44, Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ... only MSYS2 has an active community any more

until Microsoft's Ubuntu shell will be fully functional, I think MSYS2 is the only alternative which still has some traction. (disclaimer, not a Windows user)


regards,

Liviu

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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Jonah Graham
In reply to this post by Doug Schaefer-3
On 14 February 2017 at 15:49, Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I’m not a big fan of Cygwin because of it’s not a native environment.
Keep in mind that msys2 is a cygwin environment though :-) it is the
non-native environment + cross compiler MinGW-w64 that makes it
useful.


Jonah
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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Marc-André Laperle
In reply to this post by Liviu Ionescu-2

I'm not clear on how the Ubuntu stuff works. Is it possible to call an command from. outside bash? I don't know if Eclipse running as a normal Win32 application/subsystem could access that subsystem.


Just asking in case some someone knows a bit more about this, or any useful links.


Marc-André


From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Liviu Ionescu <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:00:30 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?
 

> On 14 Feb 2017, at 17:44, Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ... only MSYS2 has an active community any more

until Microsoft's Ubuntu shell will be fully functional, I think MSYS2 is the only alternative which still has some traction. (disclaimer, not a Windows user)


regards,

Liviu

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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Doug Schaefer-3
In reply to this post by Jonah Graham
On 2017-02-14, 11:03 AM, "[hidden email] on behalf of Jonah
Graham" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]>
wrote:

>On 14 February 2017 at 15:49, Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>> I¹m not a big fan of Cygwin because of it¹s not a native environment.
>Keep in mind that msys2 is a cygwin environment though :-) it is the
>non-native environment + cross compiler MinGW-w64 that makes it
>useful.

Except when the compiler gives paths that CDT needs to interpret. That
pain has scarred me for life ;).

>
>
>Jonah
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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Liviu Ionescu-2
In reply to this post by Marc-André Laperle

> On 14 Feb 2017, at 18:09, Marc-André Laperle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm not clear on how the Ubuntu stuff works.

I guess only Microsoft knows ;-)

> Is it possible to call an command from. outside bash? I don't know if Eclipse running as a normal Win32 application/subsystem could access that subsystem.

the first beta releases from last year demonstrated only a terminal where bash commands were accepted, but apparently they plan to improve the integration.

> ... any useful links.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/commandline/wsl/interop


regards,

Liviu

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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Doug Schaefer-3
In reply to this post by Marc-André Laperle
I’ve been playing with it and I can’t see how it’ll ever work. Mainly, it can’t launch Windows binaries. It truly is a Linux Virtual Machine, not an emulation layer like Cygwin and certainly not native like MinGW.

As a side story, I was trying it out as a cross build strategy for Two since Electron Packager needs to run a Windows binary to package up the Windows bits. I went as far as considering installing Wine into it but the Wine package isn’t made available in their subset of Ubuntu. I think that means they have plans on allowing execution of Windows binaries natively at some point.

Doug.

From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marc-André Laperle <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 11:09 AM
To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

I'm not clear on how the Ubuntu stuff works. Is it possible to call an command from. outside bash? I don't know if Eclipse running as a normal Win32 application/subsystem could access that subsystem.


Just asking in case some someone knows a bit more about this, or any useful links.


Marc-André


From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Liviu Ionescu <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:00:30 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?
 

> On 14 Feb 2017, at 17:44, Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ... only MSYS2 has an active community any more

until Microsoft's Ubuntu shell will be fully functional, I think MSYS2 is the only alternative which still has some traction. (disclaimer, not a Windows user)


regards,

Liviu

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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Doug Schaefer-3
Stand corrected by Liviu’s link. Interesting.

From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM
To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

I’ve been playing with it and I can’t see how it’ll ever work. Mainly, it can’t launch Windows binaries. It truly is a Linux Virtual Machine, not an emulation layer like Cygwin and certainly not native like MinGW.

As a side story, I was trying it out as a cross build strategy for Two since Electron Packager needs to run a Windows binary to package up the Windows bits. I went as far as considering installing Wine into it but the Wine package isn’t made available in their subset of Ubuntu. I think that means they have plans on allowing execution of Windows binaries natively at some point.

Doug.

From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marc-André Laperle <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 11:09 AM
To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

I'm not clear on how the Ubuntu stuff works. Is it possible to call an command from. outside bash? I don't know if Eclipse running as a normal Win32 application/subsystem could access that subsystem.


Just asking in case some someone knows a bit more about this, or any useful links.


Marc-André


From:[hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Liviu Ionescu <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:00:30 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?
 

> On 14 Feb 2017, at 17:44, Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ... only MSYS2 has an active community any more

until Microsoft's Ubuntu shell will be fully functional, I think MSYS2 is the only alternative which still has some traction. (disclaimer, not a Windows user)


regards,

Liviu

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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Jonah Graham
The other option (aka variation/complication) going forward (see for
example previous discussions from intel folk [1]) is having the tools
in a container. This is seeming like a more and more reasonable
solution to managing the tools and their versions.

[1] https://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cdt-dev/msg30403.html
~~~
Jonah Graham
Kichwa Coders Ltd.
www.kichwacoders.com


On 14 February 2017 at 16:23, Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Stand corrected by Liviu’s link. Interesting.
>
> From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Doug Schaefer
> <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM
>
> To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use
> nowadays?
>
> I’ve been playing with it and I can’t see how it’ll ever work. Mainly, it
> can’t launch Windows binaries. It truly is a Linux Virtual Machine, not an
> emulation layer like Cygwin and certainly not native like MinGW.
>
> As a side story, I was trying it out as a cross build strategy for Two since
> Electron Packager needs to run a Windows binary to package up the Windows
> bits. I went as far as considering installing Wine into it but the Wine
> package isn’t made available in their subset of Ubuntu. I think that means
> they have plans on allowing execution of Windows binaries natively at some
> point.
>
> Doug.
>
> From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marc-André Laperle
> <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
> Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 11:09 AM
> To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use
> nowadays?
>
> I'm not clear on how the Ubuntu stuff works. Is it possible to call an
> command from. outside bash? I don't know if Eclipse running as a normal
> Win32 application/subsystem could access that subsystem.
>
>
> Just asking in case some someone knows a bit more about this, or any useful
> links.
>
>
> Marc-André
>
> ________________________________
> From:[hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of
> Liviu Ionescu <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:00:30 AM
> To: CDT General developers list.
> Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use
> nowadays?
>
>
>> On 14 Feb 2017, at 17:44, Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> ... only MSYS2 has an active community any more
>
> until Microsoft's Ubuntu shell will be fully functional, I think MSYS2 is
> the only alternative which still has some traction. (disclaimer, not a
> Windows user)
>
>
> regards,
>
> Liviu
>
> _______________________________________________
> cdt-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cdt-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> cdt-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
> this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cdt-dev
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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Doug Schaefer-3
On 2017-02-14, 11:30 AM, "[hidden email] on behalf of Jonah
Graham" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]>
wrote:

>The other option (aka variation/complication) going forward (see for
>example previous discussions from intel folk [1]) is having the tools
>in a container. This is seeming like a more and more reasonable
>solution to managing the tools and their versions.

I¹d like to hear more user experiences with that. It does introduce a
layer of separation between the developer and the code they¹re working on
similar to cloud IDE environments. That and you¹re asking embedded
developers to deal with Docker.

IMHO, it seems to be an overkill solution to the problem of installing and
managing SDKs. Working on commercial RTOS distributions over the last 10
years, we¹ve gotten pretty good at using p2 to manage installations and
updates and such. Google¹s Android NDK is managed pretty well too and uses
it¹s own install management framework. As far as I¹m aware, the only issue
with cross compilation comes from the Linux kernel which, yes, you can
only build properly on Linux and certainly not on Windows. But beyond that?

>
>[1] https://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/cdt-dev/msg30403.html
>~~~
>Jonah Graham
>Kichwa Coders Ltd.
>www.kichwacoders.com
>
>
>On 14 February 2017 at 16:23, Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>> Stand corrected by Liviu¹s link. Interesting.
>>
>> From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Doug Schaefer
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Reply-To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 11:22 AM
>>
>> To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use
>> nowadays?
>>
>> I¹ve been playing with it and I can¹t see how it¹ll ever work. Mainly,
>>it
>> can¹t launch Windows binaries. It truly is a Linux Virtual Machine, not
>>an
>> emulation layer like Cygwin and certainly not native like MinGW.
>>
>> As a side story, I was trying it out as a cross build strategy for Two
>>since
>> Electron Packager needs to run a Windows binary to package up the
>>Windows
>> bits. I went as far as considering installing Wine into it but the Wine
>> package isn¹t made available in their subset of Ubuntu. I think that
>>means
>> they have plans on allowing execution of Windows binaries natively at
>>some
>> point.
>>
>> Doug.
>>
>> From: <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marc-André Laperle
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Reply-To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 11:09 AM
>> To: "CDT General developers list." <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use
>> nowadays?
>>
>> I'm not clear on how the Ubuntu stuff works. Is it possible to call an
>> command from. outside bash? I don't know if Eclipse running as a normal
>> Win32 application/subsystem could access that subsystem.
>>
>>
>> Just asking in case some someone knows a bit more about this, or any
>>useful
>> links.
>>
>>
>> Marc-André
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From:[hidden email] <[hidden email]> on
>>behalf of
>> Liviu Ionescu <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:00:30 AM
>> To: CDT General developers list.
>> Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use
>> nowadays?
>>
>>
>>> On 14 Feb 2017, at 17:44, Doug Schaefer <[hidden email]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>> ... only MSYS2 has an active community any more
>>
>> until Microsoft's Ubuntu shell will be fully functional, I think MSYS2
>>is
>> the only alternative which still has some traction. (disclaimer, not a
>> Windows user)
>>
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Liviu
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cdt-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
>>from
>> this list, visit
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cdt-dev
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> cdt-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
>>from
>> this list, visit
>> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cdt-dev
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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Marc-André Laperle
In reply to this post by Liviu Ionescu-2

Thanks a lot for this info!


From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Liviu Ionescu <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:18:26 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?
 

> On 14 Feb 2017, at 18:09, Marc-André Laperle <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm not clear on how the Ubuntu stuff works.

I guess only Microsoft knows ;-)

> Is it possible to call an command from. outside bash? I don't know if Eclipse running as a normal Win32 application/subsystem could access that subsystem.

the first beta releases from last year demonstrated only a terminal where bash commands were accepted, but apparently they plan to improve the integration.

> ... any useful links.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/commandline/wsl/interop


regards,

Liviu

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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Tim Orling-2
“the intel folk” should really be stated as the Yocto Project folk (even though we are all Intel employees, so technically correct).

Randy Witt is giving a talk at the Embedded Linux Conference about containers, although this is not toolchain specific:

I would also highly recommend MSYS2/MinGW64 over Cygwin or other similar approaches. The simple fact that MSYS2 has a package manager in the terminal beats Cygwin hands down. It also just seems to have more sensible defaults/configuration and “just works” for me.

Cheers.

—Tim

On Feb 14, 2017, at 9:58 AM, Marc-André Laperle <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks a lot for this info!

From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Liviu Ionescu <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:18:26 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?
 

> On 14 Feb 2017, at 18:09, Marc-André Laperle <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 
> I'm not clear on how the Ubuntu stuff works.

I guess only Microsoft knows ;-)

> Is it possible to call an command from. outside bash? I don't know if Eclipse running as a normal Win32 application/subsystem could access that subsystem.

the first beta releases from last year demonstrated only a terminal where bash commands were accepted, but apparently they plan to improve the integration.

> ... any useful links.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/commandline/wsl/interop


regards,

Liviu

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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Jonah Graham
On 14 February 2017 at 21:15, Tim Orling
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> “the intel folk” should really be stated as the Yocto Project folk (even
> though we are all Intel employees, so technically correct).
Thanks for the clarification. I have started using Yocto on a recent
project, well done there!

> Randy Witt is giving a talk at the Embedded Linux Conference about
> containers, although this is not toolchain specific:
> http://sched.co/9Itu
Looks very interesting. Thanks.
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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Carlos Ferreira
Where I work, we use CMake abundantly for C/C++/Python projects.

Autotools is used only for linux-kernel related projects.



On 14 February 2017 at 22:20, Jonah Graham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 14 February 2017 at 21:15, Tim Orling
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> “the intel folk” should really be stated as the Yocto Project folk (even
>> though we are all Intel employees, so technically correct).
> Thanks for the clarification. I have started using Yocto on a recent
> project, well done there!
>
>> Randy Witt is giving a talk at the Embedded Linux Conference about
>> containers, although this is not toolchain specific:
>> http://sched.co/9Itu
> Looks very interesting. Thanks.
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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Marc-André Laperle
Thanks for the data point! Which toolchain do you use with CMake (i.e. compiler, linker)?

Marc-André

From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Carlos Ferreira <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 8:53:27 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?
 
Where I work, we use CMake abundantly for C/C++/Python projects.

Autotools is used only for linux-kernel related projects.



On 14 February 2017 at 22:20, Jonah Graham <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 14 February 2017 at 21:15, Tim Orling
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> “the intel folk” should really be stated as the Yocto Project folk (even
>> though we are all Intel employees, so technically correct).
> Thanks for the clarification. I have started using Yocto on a recent
> project, well done there!
>
>> Randy Witt is giving a talk at the Embedded Linux Conference about
>> containers, although this is not toolchain specific:
>> http://sched.co/9Itu
> Looks very interesting. Thanks.
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> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
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Re: Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?

Carlos Ferreira
We use the GCC provided by the OpenWRT distro for cross-compiling. Our current devices are mostly Raspberries. In the past, we used for PC Engines Alyx and Gateworks Cambria devices.

On 27 February 2017 at 14:58, Marc-André Laperle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks for the data point! Which toolchain do you use with CMake (i.e. compiler, linker)?

Marc-André

From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Carlos Ferreira <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 8:53:27 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] Autotools, GCC, GDB, etc on Windows what to use nowadays?
 
Where I work, we use CMake abundantly for C/C++/Python projects.

Autotools is used only for linux-kernel related projects.



On 14 February 2017 at 22:20, Jonah Graham <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 14 February 2017 at 21:15, Tim Orling
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> “the intel folk” should really be stated as the Yocto Project folk (even
>> though we are all Intel employees, so technically correct).
> Thanks for the clarification. I have started using Yocto on a recent
> project, well done there!
>
>> Randy Witt is giving a talk at the Embedded Linux Conference about
>> containers, although this is not toolchain specific:
>> http://sched.co/9Itu
> Looks very interesting. Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> cdt-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cdt-dev
_______________________________________________
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To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
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--

Carlos Miguel Ferreira
Researcher at Telecommunications Institute
Aveiro - Portugal
Work E-mail - [hidden email]
Skype & GTalk -> carlosmf.pt@gmail.com

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