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Mass changes again

Andrey Loskutov
Hi,

we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355

And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.

I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.

My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work week of my time, was https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.

I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.

I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do the work I do:

1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and identify new failures
2) Report bugs for new failures
3) Identify offending commits and notify authors

If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov

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Re: Mass changes again

Lars Vogel-2
Hi all,

The test failures are not reproducable on Gerrit nor locally on Linux.

I will try to setup a Windows machine to see if these are real errors
or only a temporary issue with the Windows test machine. Looking at
the test history of our recent builds, the Windows machine always had
test errors which other machines did not have.

Anyone knows how to check / rest the Windows test machine?

Best regards, Lars



On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened
>
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355
>
> And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.
>
> I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>
> My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work week of my time, was https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.
>
> I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.
>
> I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do the work I do:
>
> 1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and identify new failures
> 2) Report bugs for new failures
> 3) Identify offending commits and notify authors
>
> If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
> If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrey Loskutov
>
> Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
>
> https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
>
> _______________________________________________
> platform-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev



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Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
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Re: Mass changes again

Peter Kriens-2
I guess you have your own infrastructure but you can freely build open source projects with Github actions. They provide Linux, Windows, and Mac.

At bndtools we build on all. A few years ago we started to build on Windows for similar reasons you seem to experience now. It took us a number of months to work out all the bugs, there were quite a few. Confirming my prejudices against Windows over and over again :-)

Building with Github actions is frighteningly easy, you can look at the bnd build for an example. We build on many different Java versions and platforms.


Kind regards,

Peter Kriens



On 21 Jan 2020, at 09:55, Lars Vogel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

The test failures are not reproducable on Gerrit nor locally on Linux.

I will try to setup a Windows machine to see if these are real errors
or only a temporary issue with the Windows test machine. Looking at
the test history of our recent builds, the Windows machine always had
test errors which other machines did not have.

Anyone knows how to check / rest the Windows test machine?

Best regards, Lars



On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi,

we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355

And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.

I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.

My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work week of my time, was https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.

I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.

I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do the work I do:

1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and identify new failures
2) Report bugs for new failures
3) Identify offending commits and notify authors

If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov

_______________________________________________
platform-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
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--
Eclipse Platform project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH

Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (040) 5247 6322, [hidden email], Web: http://www.vogella.com
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Re: Mass changes again

Aleksandar Kurtakov
In reply to this post by Andrey Loskutov


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355

And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.

I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.

My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work week of my time, was https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.

I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.

I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do the work I do:

1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and identify new failures
2) Report bugs for new failures
3) Identify offending commits and notify authors

If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.

This actually brings one very significant problem - Mac and Windows builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!). This is long enough period for contributors to gain the habbit of just ignoring test results on Mac and Windows. I can't blame anyone for that (thanks Andrey for still checking them!).
IMHO is current failing tests on Mac and Windows tests can't/won't be fixed ASAP - these should be run only on Linux so seeing test failure finally means there is something to be looked at. As it should have always been.
Lakshmi, Niraj, as you're respective SWT port maintainers and the long failing tests are UI related: What is your opinion on this?
 

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov

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Red Hat Eclipse Team

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Re: Mass changes again

Lars Vogel-2
In reply to this post by Lars Vogel-2
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:55 AM Lars Vogel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I will try to setup a Windows machine to see if these are real errors
> or only a temporary issue with the Windows test machine. Looking at
> the test history of our recent builds, the Windows machine always had
> test errors which other machines did not have.

Noopur was kind enough to run the failing JDT UI tests on Windows
locally and they also passed. See
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352

> Anyone knows how to check / rest the Windows test machine?

To me it sounds like is is likely that the test machine is having
(temporary???) issues.
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Re: Mass changes again

Noopur Gupta
I have restarted the tests for I20200120-1800 on the Windows test machine to see if the failures repeat. 
 
Regards,
Noopur
 
----- Original message -----
From: Lars Vogel <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]
To: "Eclipse platform general developers list." <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [platform-dev] Mass changes again
Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 5:09 PM
 
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 9:55 AM Lars Vogel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I will try to setup a Windows machine to see if these are real errors
> or only a temporary issue with the Windows test machine. Looking at
> the test history of our recent builds, the Windows machine always had
> test errors which other machines did not have.

Noopur was kind enough to run the failing JDT UI tests on Windows
locally and they also passed. See
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352

> Anyone knows how to check / rest the Windows test machine?

To me it sounds like is is likely that the test machine is having
(temporary???) issues.
_______________________________________________
platform-dev mailing list
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To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
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Re: Mass changes again

Sarika Sinha
In reply to this post by Aleksandar Kurtakov
> And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.

> I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
> If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
> If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
 
I agree with Andrey that may be we should rethink on the strategy of mass changes as it takes a lot of productive time of a few committers in going through the changes and analysing the regressions unless other committers come forward to share this responsibility.
 
In the past, most of the regressions caused by mass changes are OS independent for example:
 
With power comes responsibility and the contributor/committer and the reviewers must take the responsibility to test the impacted areas in UI as we don't have enough test coverage. Before merging any contributor/committer and the reviewers can seek help from the community to test on other platforms if they don't have access to them.
 
 
 
Thanks & Regards,
Sarika
 
 
----- Original message -----
From: Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]
To: "Eclipse platform general developers list." <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [platform-dev] Mass changes again
Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 2:42 PM
 
 
 
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355

And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.

I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.

My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work week of my time, was https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.

I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.

I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do the work I do:

1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and identify new failures
2) Report bugs for new failures
3) Identify offending commits and notify authors

If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
 
This actually brings one very significant problem - Mac and Windows builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!). This is long enough period for contributors to gain the habbit of just ignoring test results on Mac and Windows. I can't blame anyone for that (thanks Andrey for still checking them!).
IMHO is current failing tests on Mac and Windows tests can't/won't be fixed ASAP - these should be run only on Linux so seeing test failure finally means there is something to be looked at. As it should have always been.
Lakshmi, Niraj, as you're respective SWT port maintainers and the long failing tests are UI related: What is your opinion on this?
 

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov

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platform-dev mailing list
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Red Hat Eclipse Team
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Re: Mass changes again

Lars Vogel-2
Sarika,

only one of your examples is a "mass change". Both
https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/154926/ and
https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/153288/ changed only one file.

Best regards, Lars

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:45 PM Sarika Sinha <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.
>
> > I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
> > If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
> > If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>
> I agree with Andrey that may be we should rethink on the strategy of mass changes as it takes a lot of productive time of a few committers in going through the changes and analysing the regressions unless other committers come forward to share this responsibility.
>
> In the past, most of the regressions caused by mass changes are OS independent for example:
>
> Gerrit  https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/154926/ caused 4.15 M1 respin with Bug 558991.
> Gerrit https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/144099/ causing Bug 549222
> Commit https://git.eclipse.org/c/pde/eclipse.pde.ui.git/commit/?id=176312d9c10572510576b11df4e711a4d118025e causing Bug 553276
>
>
> With power comes responsibility and the contributor/committer and the reviewers must take the responsibility to test the impacted areas in UI as we don't have enough test coverage. Before merging any contributor/committer and the reviewers can seek help from the community to test on other platforms if they don't have access to them.
>
>
>
> Thanks & Regards,
> Sarika
>
>
>
> ----- Original message -----
> From: Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]>
> Sent by: [hidden email]
> To: "Eclipse platform general developers list." <[hidden email]>
> Cc:
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [platform-dev] Mass changes again
> Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 2:42 PM
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened
>
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355
>
> And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.
>
> I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>
> My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work week of my time, was https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.
>
> I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.
>
> I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do the work I do:
>
> 1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and identify new failures
> 2) Report bugs for new failures
> 3) Identify offending commits and notify authors
>
> If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
> If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>
>
> This actually brings one very significant problem - Mac and Windows builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!). This is long enough period for contributors to gain the habbit of just ignoring test results on Mac and Windows. I can't blame anyone for that (thanks Andrey for still checking them!).
> IMHO is current failing tests on Mac and Windows tests can't/won't be fixed ASAP - these should be run only on Linux so seeing test failure finally means there is something to be looked at. As it should have always been.
> Lakshmi, Niraj, as you're respective SWT port maintainers and the long failing tests are UI related: What is your opinion on this?
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Andrey Loskutov
>
> Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
>
> https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
>
> _______________________________________________
> platform-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>
>
>
> --
> Alexander Kurtakov
> Red Hat Eclipse Team
> _______________________________________________
> platform-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> platform-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev



--
Eclipse Platform project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH

Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (040) 5247 6322, Email: [hidden email], Web: http://www.vogella.com
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Re: Mass changes again

Andrey Loskutov
Lars,

you don't really want me to provide you list of all regressions I've seen caused by mass changes, or do you?

Am 21. Januar 2020 18:09:21 MEZ schrieb Lars Vogel <[hidden email]>:

>Sarika,
>
>only one of your examples is a "mass change". Both
>https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/154926/ and
>https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/153288/ changed only one file.
>
>Best regards, Lars
>
>On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:45 PM Sarika Sinha <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> > And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test
>coverage is not the best.
>>
>> > I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass
>changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>> > If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the
>"benefit" of mass changes.
>> > If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the
>code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>>
>> I agree with Andrey that may be we should rethink on the strategy of
>mass changes as it takes a lot of productive time of a few committers
>in going through the changes and analysing the regressions unless other
>committers come forward to share this responsibility.
>>
>> In the past, most of the regressions caused by mass changes are OS
>independent for example:
>>
>> Gerrit  https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/154926/ caused 4.15 M1 respin
>with Bug 558991.
>> Gerrit https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/144099/ causing Bug 549222
>> Commit
>https://git.eclipse.org/c/pde/eclipse.pde.ui.git/commit/?id=176312d9c10572510576b11df4e711a4d118025e
>causing Bug 553276
>>
>>
>> With power comes responsibility and the contributor/committer and the
>reviewers must take the responsibility to test the impacted areas in UI
>as we don't have enough test coverage. Before merging any
>contributor/committer and the reviewers can seek help from the
>community to test on other platforms if they don't have access to them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Sarika
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original message -----
>> From: Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]>
>> Sent by: [hidden email]
>> To: "Eclipse platform general developers list."
><[hidden email]>
>> Cc:
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [platform-dev] Mass changes again
>> Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 2:42 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened
>>
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355
>>
>> And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test
>coverage is not the best.
>>
>> I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass
>changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>>
>> My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work
>week of my time, was
>https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.
>>
>> I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I
>don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.
>>
>> I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do
>the work I do:
>>
>> 1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and
>identify new failures
>> 2) Report bugs for new failures
>> 3) Identify offending commits and notify authors
>>
>> If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the
>"benefit" of mass changes.
>> If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the
>code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>>
>>
>> This actually brings one very significant problem - Mac and Windows
>builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!). This is
>long enough period for contributors to gain the habbit of just ignoring
>test results on Mac and Windows. I can't blame anyone for that (thanks
>Andrey for still checking them!).
>> IMHO is current failing tests on Mac and Windows tests can't/won't be
>fixed ASAP - these should be run only on Linux so seeing test failure
>finally means there is something to be looked at. As it should have
>always been.
>> Lakshmi, Niraj, as you're respective SWT port maintainers and the
>long failing tests are UI related: What is your opinion on this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Andrey Loskutov
>>
>> Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
>>
>> https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alexander Kurtakov
>> Red Hat Eclipse Team
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>
>
>
>--
>Eclipse Platform project co-lead
>CEO vogella GmbH
>
>Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
>Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
>Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
>USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
>Fax (040) 5247 6322, Email: [hidden email], Web:
>http://www.vogella.com
>_______________________________________________
>platform-dev mailing list
>[hidden email]
>To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
>from this list, visit
>https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev

--
Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
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Re: Mass changes again

Lars Vogel-2
Andrey,

This comment sound a bit aggressive and without a clear benefit. Please avoid such comments. If my comment to Sarika sounded the same way, I'm sorry that was not the intention.

I think we all agree that change can cause issues and that no change do not cause direct issues. But changes also have benefits. For example look at the performance tests for 4.15 in which we improved in almost all areas.

The normal process is that if a change creates issues we fix or revert it. Yesterday was bad in the sense that lots of stuff was merged at the same day and that we hand several build issues before that.

The PMC discussed today that we will try to rerun the tests, if that does not work restart the test machine and if that does not fix the tests try to revert the changes. 

Best regards, Lars


Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> schrieb am Di., 21. Jan. 2020, 18:30:
Lars,

you don't really want me to provide you list of all regressions I've seen caused by mass changes, or do you?

Am 21. Januar 2020 18:09:21 MEZ schrieb Lars Vogel <[hidden email]>:
>Sarika,
>
>only one of your examples is a "mass change". Both
>https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/154926/ and
>https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/153288/ changed only one file.
>
>Best regards, Lars
>
>On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:45 PM Sarika Sinha <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> > And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test
>coverage is not the best.
>>
>> > I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass
>changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>> > If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the
>"benefit" of mass changes.
>> > If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the
>code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>>
>> I agree with Andrey that may be we should rethink on the strategy of
>mass changes as it takes a lot of productive time of a few committers
>in going through the changes and analysing the regressions unless other
>committers come forward to share this responsibility.
>>
>> In the past, most of the regressions caused by mass changes are OS
>independent for example:
>>
>> Gerrit  https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/154926/ caused 4.15 M1 respin
>with Bug 558991.
>> Gerrit https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/144099/ causing Bug 549222
>> Commit
>https://git.eclipse.org/c/pde/eclipse.pde.ui.git/commit/?id=176312d9c10572510576b11df4e711a4d118025e
>causing Bug 553276
>>
>>
>> With power comes responsibility and the contributor/committer and the
>reviewers must take the responsibility to test the impacted areas in UI
>as we don't have enough test coverage. Before merging any
>contributor/committer and the reviewers can seek help from the
>community to test on other platforms if they don't have access to them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Sarika
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original message -----
>> From: Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]>
>> Sent by: [hidden email]
>> To: "Eclipse platform general developers list."
><[hidden email]>
>> Cc:
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [platform-dev] Mass changes again
>> Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 2:42 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened
>>
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355
>>
>> And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test
>coverage is not the best.
>>
>> I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass
>changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>>
>> My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work
>week of my time, was
>https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.
>>
>> I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I
>don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.
>>
>> I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do
>the work I do:
>>
>> 1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and
>identify new failures
>> 2) Report bugs for new failures
>> 3) Identify offending commits and notify authors
>>
>> If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the
>"benefit" of mass changes.
>> If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the
>code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>>
>>
>> This actually brings one very significant problem - Mac and Windows
>builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!). This is
>long enough period for contributors to gain the habbit of just ignoring
>test results on Mac and Windows. I can't blame anyone for that (thanks
>Andrey for still checking them!).
>> IMHO is current failing tests on Mac and Windows tests can't/won't be
>fixed ASAP - these should be run only on Linux so seeing test failure
>finally means there is something to be looked at. As it should have
>always been.
>> Lakshmi, Niraj, as you're respective SWT port maintainers and the
>long failing tests are UI related: What is your opinion on this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Andrey Loskutov
>>
>> Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
>>
>> https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alexander Kurtakov
>> Red Hat Eclipse Team
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>
>
>
>--
>Eclipse Platform project co-lead
>CEO vogella GmbH
>
>Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
>Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
>Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
>USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
>Fax (040) 5247 6322, Email: [hidden email], Web:
>http://www.vogella.com
>_______________________________________________
>platform-dev mailing list
>[hidden email]
>To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
>from this list, visit
>https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev

--
Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
_______________________________________________
platform-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev

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Re: Mass changes again

Aleksandar Kurtakov
Everyone,

I find it extremely disappointing that we have this discussion again and that people are looking at things so selfishly!!!
Do we as a community care about our own time only? That would mean there is no community to start with!
Let's put it that way:
* I have probably fixed bugs caused by any of you (and never made noise about it until now !!! - as it should be in a true community)
* You have fixed bugs caused by me
* You have helped me identify and fix issues
* I have identified and explained issues to you
So what is worth more to do users of Eclipse - your time fixing stuff I broke or my time fixing stuff you broke? Let me tell it straight - both are priceless because without the collaboration I would keep banging my head over e.g. jdt.core or equinox issue and you'll do the same over some swt or maven issue. If we fail to understand that we fail at understanding the basic principles of open source and its mechanics.
Let me remind you that everything is a giant cycle so these so called useless cleanups are actually helpful to a number of people - e.g. the whole Red Hat team. Know it or not our environment is a build from source one so if these changes are not done by other members of the community we would have to do it ourself as we really pay attention to our build logs to identify and be able to use different version of dependencies and etc. As you would have to guess if we spend our time on this that would automatically mean less time on JDT, Releng, Platform, Tycho, WildWeb, ShellWax ....
And we can work on all this only because there are the people doing the core work AND there are the people doing the cleanup part!!!
The sooner people start to look at the bigger picture and out of their silo, the sooner we will be able to gain more out of the strong sides of every member of the community!


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 7:44 PM Lars Vogel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Andrey,

This comment sound a bit aggressive and without a clear benefit. Please avoid such comments. If my comment to Sarika sounded the same way, I'm sorry that was not the intention.

I think we all agree that change can cause issues and that no change do not cause direct issues. But changes also have benefits. For example look at the performance tests for 4.15 in which we improved in almost all areas.

The normal process is that if a change creates issues we fix or revert it. Yesterday was bad in the sense that lots of stuff was merged at the same day and that we hand several build issues before that.

The PMC discussed today that we will try to rerun the tests, if that does not work restart the test machine and if that does not fix the tests try to revert the changes. 

Best regards, Lars


Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> schrieb am Di., 21. Jan. 2020, 18:30:
Lars,

you don't really want me to provide you list of all regressions I've seen caused by mass changes, or do you?

Am 21. Januar 2020 18:09:21 MEZ schrieb Lars Vogel <[hidden email]>:
>Sarika,
>
>only one of your examples is a "mass change". Both
>https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/154926/ and
>https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/153288/ changed only one file.
>
>Best regards, Lars
>
>On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:45 PM Sarika Sinha <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> > And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test
>coverage is not the best.
>>
>> > I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass
>changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>> > If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the
>"benefit" of mass changes.
>> > If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the
>code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>>
>> I agree with Andrey that may be we should rethink on the strategy of
>mass changes as it takes a lot of productive time of a few committers
>in going through the changes and analysing the regressions unless other
>committers come forward to share this responsibility.
>>
>> In the past, most of the regressions caused by mass changes are OS
>independent for example:
>>
>> Gerrit  https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/154926/ caused 4.15 M1 respin
>with Bug 558991.
>> Gerrit https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/144099/ causing Bug 549222
>> Commit
>https://git.eclipse.org/c/pde/eclipse.pde.ui.git/commit/?id=176312d9c10572510576b11df4e711a4d118025e
>causing Bug 553276
>>
>>
>> With power comes responsibility and the contributor/committer and the
>reviewers must take the responsibility to test the impacted areas in UI
>as we don't have enough test coverage. Before merging any
>contributor/committer and the reviewers can seek help from the
>community to test on other platforms if they don't have access to them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Sarika
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original message -----
>> From: Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]>
>> Sent by: [hidden email]
>> To: "Eclipse platform general developers list."
><[hidden email]>
>> Cc:
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [platform-dev] Mass changes again
>> Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 2:42 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened
>>
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355
>>
>> And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test
>coverage is not the best.
>>
>> I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass
>changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>>
>> My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work
>week of my time, was
>https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.
>>
>> I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I
>don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.
>>
>> I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do
>the work I do:
>>
>> 1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and
>identify new failures
>> 2) Report bugs for new failures
>> 3) Identify offending commits and notify authors
>>
>> If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the
>"benefit" of mass changes.
>> If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the
>code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>>
>>
>> This actually brings one very significant problem - Mac and Windows
>builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!). This is
>long enough period for contributors to gain the habbit of just ignoring
>test results on Mac and Windows. I can't blame anyone for that (thanks
>Andrey for still checking them!).
>> IMHO is current failing tests on Mac and Windows tests can't/won't be
>fixed ASAP - these should be run only on Linux so seeing test failure
>finally means there is something to be looked at. As it should have
>always been.
>> Lakshmi, Niraj, as you're respective SWT port maintainers and the
>long failing tests are UI related: What is your opinion on this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Andrey Loskutov
>>
>> Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
>>
>> https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alexander Kurtakov
>> Red Hat Eclipse Team
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>
>
>
>--
>Eclipse Platform project co-lead
>CEO vogella GmbH
>
>Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
>Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
>Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
>USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
>Fax (040) 5247 6322, Email: [hidden email], Web:
>http://www.vogella.com
>_______________________________________________
>platform-dev mailing list
>[hidden email]
>To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
>from this list, visit
>https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev

--
Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
_______________________________________________
platform-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
_______________________________________________
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To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
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--
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse Team

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Re: Mass changes again

Lars Vogel-2
Friends of Eclipse,

The re-run of the test on Windows showed no test errors for JDT and
core resources anymore without any related code changes.

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353 still shows 3 new
test failures.

I have a look tomorrow and if I cannot fix it or reproduce it, I plan
to revert the lambda conversion commit with may have caused this.

Best regards, Lars

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 7:35 PM Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Everyone,
>
> I find it extremely disappointing that we have this discussion again and that people are looking at things so selfishly!!!
> Do we as a community care about our own time only? That would mean there is no community to start with!
> Let's put it that way:
> * I have probably fixed bugs caused by any of you (and never made noise about it until now !!! - as it should be in a true community)
> * You have fixed bugs caused by me
> * You have helped me identify and fix issues
> * I have identified and explained issues to you
> So what is worth more to do users of Eclipse - your time fixing stuff I broke or my time fixing stuff you broke? Let me tell it straight - both are priceless because without the collaboration I would keep banging my head over e.g. jdt.core or equinox issue and you'll do the same over some swt or maven issue. If we fail to understand that we fail at understanding the basic principles of open source and its mechanics.
> Let me remind you that everything is a giant cycle so these so called useless cleanups are actually helpful to a number of people - e.g. the whole Red Hat team. Know it or not our environment is a build from source one so if these changes are not done by other members of the community we would have to do it ourself as we really pay attention to our build logs to identify and be able to use different version of dependencies and etc. As you would have to guess if we spend our time on this that would automatically mean less time on JDT, Releng, Platform, Tycho, WildWeb, ShellWax ....
> And we can work on all this only because there are the people doing the core work AND there are the people doing the cleanup part!!!
> The sooner people start to look at the bigger picture and out of their silo, the sooner we will be able to gain more out of the strong sides of every member of the community!
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 7:44 PM Lars Vogel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Andrey,
>>
>> This comment sound a bit aggressive and without a clear benefit. Please avoid such comments. If my comment to Sarika sounded the same way, I'm sorry that was not the intention.
>>
>> I think we all agree that change can cause issues and that no change do not cause direct issues. But changes also have benefits. For example look at the performance tests for 4.15 in which we improved in almost all areas.
>>
>> The normal process is that if a change creates issues we fix or revert it. Yesterday was bad in the sense that lots of stuff was merged at the same day and that we hand several build issues before that.
>>
>> The PMC discussed today that we will try to rerun the tests, if that does not work restart the test machine and if that does not fix the tests try to revert the changes.
>>
>> Best regards, Lars
>>
>>
>> Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> schrieb am Di., 21. Jan. 2020, 18:30:
>>>
>>> Lars,
>>>
>>> you don't really want me to provide you list of all regressions I've seen caused by mass changes, or do you?
>>>
>>> Am 21. Januar 2020 18:09:21 MEZ schrieb Lars Vogel <[hidden email]>:
>>> >Sarika,
>>> >
>>> >only one of your examples is a "mass change". Both
>>> >https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/154926/ and
>>> >https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/153288/ changed only one file.
>>> >
>>> >Best regards, Lars
>>> >
>>> >On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 4:45 PM Sarika Sinha <[hidden email]>
>>> >wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test
>>> >coverage is not the best.
>>> >>
>>> >> > I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass
>>> >changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>>> >> > If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the
>>> >"benefit" of mass changes.
>>> >> > If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the
>>> >code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>>> >>
>>> >> I agree with Andrey that may be we should rethink on the strategy of
>>> >mass changes as it takes a lot of productive time of a few committers
>>> >in going through the changes and analysing the regressions unless other
>>> >committers come forward to share this responsibility.
>>> >>
>>> >> In the past, most of the regressions caused by mass changes are OS
>>> >independent for example:
>>> >>
>>> >> Gerrit  https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/154926/ caused 4.15 M1 respin
>>> >with Bug 558991.
>>> >> Gerrit https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/144099/ causing Bug 549222
>>> >> Commit
>>> >https://git.eclipse.org/c/pde/eclipse.pde.ui.git/commit/?id=176312d9c10572510576b11df4e711a4d118025e
>>> >causing Bug 553276
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> With power comes responsibility and the contributor/committer and the
>>> >reviewers must take the responsibility to test the impacted areas in UI
>>> >as we don't have enough test coverage. Before merging any
>>> >contributor/committer and the reviewers can seek help from the
>>> >community to test on other platforms if they don't have access to them.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks & Regards,
>>> >> Sarika
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original message -----
>>> >> From: Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]>
>>> >> Sent by: [hidden email]
>>> >> To: "Eclipse platform general developers list."
>>> ><[hidden email]>
>>> >> Cc:
>>> >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [platform-dev] Mass changes again
>>> >> Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 2:42 PM
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]>
>>> >wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Hi,
>>> >>
>>> >> we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened
>>> >>
>>> >> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
>>> >> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
>>> >> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355
>>> >>
>>> >> And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test
>>> >coverage is not the best.
>>> >>
>>> >> I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass
>>> >changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>>> >>
>>> >> My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work
>>> >week of my time, was
>>> >https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.
>>> >>
>>> >> I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I
>>> >don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.
>>> >>
>>> >> I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do
>>> >the work I do:
>>> >>
>>> >> 1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and
>>> >identify new failures
>>> >> 2) Report bugs for new failures
>>> >> 3) Identify offending commits and notify authors
>>> >>
>>> >> If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the
>>> >"benefit" of mass changes.
>>> >> If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the
>>> >code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> This actually brings one very significant problem - Mac and Windows
>>> >builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!). This is
>>> >long enough period for contributors to gain the habbit of just ignoring
>>> >test results on Mac and Windows. I can't blame anyone for that (thanks
>>> >Andrey for still checking them!).
>>> >> IMHO is current failing tests on Mac and Windows tests can't/won't be
>>> >fixed ASAP - these should be run only on Linux so seeing test failure
>>> >finally means there is something to be looked at. As it should have
>>> >always been.
>>> >> Lakshmi, Niraj, as you're respective SWT port maintainers and the
>>> >long failing tests are UI related: What is your opinion on this?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Kind regards,
>>> >> Andrey Loskutov
>>> >>
>>> >> Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
>>> >>
>>> >> https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> platform-dev mailing list
>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>>> >unsubscribe from this list, visit
>>> >> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Alexander Kurtakov
>>> >> Red Hat Eclipse Team
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> platform-dev mailing list
>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>>> >unsubscribe from this list, visit
>>> >> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> platform-dev mailing list
>>> >> [hidden email]
>>> >> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or
>>> >unsubscribe from this list, visit
>>> >> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >Eclipse Platform project co-lead
>>> >CEO vogella GmbH
>>> >
>>> >Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
>>> >Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
>>> >Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
>>> >USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
>>> >Fax (040) 5247 6322, Email: [hidden email], Web:
>>> >http://www.vogella.com
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >platform-dev mailing list
>>> >[hidden email]
>>> >To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
>>> >from this list, visit
>>> >https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Andrey Loskutov
>>>
>>> https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
>>> Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> platform-dev mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
>>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>
>
>
> --
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> Red Hat Eclipse Team
> _______________________________________________
> platform-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev



--
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Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
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Re: Mass changes again

Lakshmi P Shanmugam-2
In reply to this post by Aleksandar Kurtakov
> Mac and Windows builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!).
The Mac and Windows builds are stable. But, the tests in e4.ui.tests and ui.tests.* have been failing, many of them for several releases. It should be investigated if the tests are unstable.
 
Kalyan has been opening bugs for the failing tests and investigating many of them. Bug numbers for all failing tests in 4.15M1 are in comment https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=558953#c7. Component owners or people familiar with the affected areas need to investigate the failing tests to see if they are real problems in the code.
 
Since these long failing ones affect developers from seeing new failures, they could disable the tests for the failing platform and open a bug for tracking and investigation. We did this in 4.14 for the 2 SWT tests that were failing for a long time on the Mac test machine.
 
Thanks & Regards,
Lakshmi P Shanmugam,
Eclipse Platform Co-lead,
India Software Lab, Bangalore
 
 
----- Original message -----
From: Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]
To: "Eclipse platform general developers list." <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [platform-dev] Mass changes again
Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 2:42 PM
 
 
 
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355

And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.

I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.

My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work week of my time, was https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.

I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.

I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do the work I do:

1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and identify new failures
2) Report bugs for new failures
3) Identify offending commits and notify authors

If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
 
This actually brings one very significant problem - Mac and Windows builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!). This is long enough period for contributors to gain the habbit of just ignoring test results on Mac and Windows. I can't blame anyone for that (thanks Andrey for still checking them!).
IMHO is current failing tests on Mac and Windows tests can't/won't be fixed ASAP - these should be run only on Linux so seeing test failure finally means there is something to be looked at. As it should have always been.
Lakshmi, Niraj, as you're respective SWT port maintainers and the long failing tests are UI related: What is your opinion on this?
 
 

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov

_______________________________________________
platform-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
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--
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse Team
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Re: Mass changes again

Aleksandar Kurtakov


On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 1:29 PM Lakshmi P Shanmugam <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Mac and Windows builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!).
The Mac and Windows builds are stable. But, the tests in e4.ui.tests and ui.tests.* have been failing, many of them for several releases. It should be investigated if the tests are unstable.

We can go into semantic analysis of what stable means of course :) but the simple fact is I go to https://download.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/drops4/I20200121-2225/ and I claim all unstable (until looking into the tests themselves). And I know many would not do that.
 
 
Kalyan has been opening bugs for the failing tests and investigating many of them. Bug numbers for all failing tests in 4.15M1 are in comment https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=558953#c7. Component owners or people familiar with the affected areas need to investigate the failing tests to see if they are real problems in the code.
 
Since these long failing ones affect developers from seeing new failures, they could disable the tests for the failing platform and open a bug for tracking and investigation.

If this is the best path forward I recommend anyone that cares about these platforms to step up and do it.
 
We did this in 4.14 for the 2 SWT tests that were failing for a long time on the Mac test machine.
 
Thanks & Regards,
Lakshmi P Shanmugam,
Eclipse Platform Co-lead,
India Software Lab, Bangalore
 
 
----- Original message -----
From: Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]
To: "Eclipse platform general developers list." <[hidden email]>
Cc:
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [platform-dev] Mass changes again
Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 2:42 PM
 
 
 
On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355

And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.

I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.

My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work week of my time, was https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.

I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.

I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do the work I do:

1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and identify new failures
2) Report bugs for new failures
3) Identify offending commits and notify authors

If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
 
This actually brings one very significant problem - Mac and Windows builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!). This is long enough period for contributors to gain the habbit of just ignoring test results on Mac and Windows. I can't blame anyone for that (thanks Andrey for still checking them!).
IMHO is current failing tests on Mac and Windows tests can't/won't be fixed ASAP - these should be run only on Linux so seeing test failure finally means there is something to be looked at. As it should have always been.
Lakshmi, Niraj, as you're respective SWT port maintainers and the long failing tests are UI related: What is your opinion on this?
 
 

Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих

https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov

_______________________________________________
platform-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev


--
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse Team
_______________________________________________
platform-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
 

_______________________________________________
platform-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev


--
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse Team

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Re: Mass changes again

Lars Vogel-2
Friends of Eclipse,

To summarize the analysis of various people: Looks like neither of the
three reported issues were caused by recent changes.

The following two issue seems to be have been "just" flaky tests, we
did not see the failure happen again.

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353

The last bug could also not be traced back to any recent changes and
resulted in deactivation of the tests on Windows.

https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355

Thanks to Andrey for watching the tests.

Thanks to Kaylan, Dani, Noopur and Paul for looking into the related tests.

Especially a big thanks to Paul who fixed various test issues over the
last few days which makes our tests less flaky. For an example, see
his fix and impressive analysis in
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=541448#c5.

Best regards, Lars





On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 1:48 PM Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 1:29 PM Lakshmi P Shanmugam <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > Mac and Windows builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!).
>> The Mac and Windows builds are stable. But, the tests in e4.ui.tests and ui.tests.* have been failing, many of them for several releases. It should be investigated if the tests are unstable.
>
>
> We can go into semantic analysis of what stable means of course :) but the simple fact is I go to https://download.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/drops4/I20200121-2225/ and I claim all unstable (until looking into the tests themselves). And I know many would not do that.
>
>>
>>
>> Kalyan has been opening bugs for the failing tests and investigating many of them. Bug numbers for all failing tests in 4.15M1 are in comment https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=558953#c7. Component owners or people familiar with the affected areas need to investigate the failing tests to see if they are real problems in the code.
>>
>> Since these long failing ones affect developers from seeing new failures, they could disable the tests for the failing platform and open a bug for tracking and investigation.
>
>
> If this is the best path forward I recommend anyone that cares about these platforms to step up and do it.
>
>>
>> We did this in 4.14 for the 2 SWT tests that were failing for a long time on the Mac test machine.
>>
>> Thanks & Regards,
>> Lakshmi P Shanmugam,
>> Eclipse Platform Co-lead,
>> India Software Lab, Bangalore
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original message -----
>> From: Aleksandar Kurtakov <[hidden email]>
>> Sent by: [hidden email]
>> To: "Eclipse platform general developers list." <[hidden email]>
>> Cc:
>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [platform-dev] Mass changes again
>> Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2020 2:42 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:46 AM Andrey Loskutov <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> we had numerous regressions in two last builds, I've opened
>>
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559352
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559353
>> https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=559355
>>
>> And I guess there are more, we just don't see them because our test coverage is not the best.
>>
>> I don't know why should we continue this practice of blind "mass changes" for no good reason, that caused so many regressions so far.
>>
>> My best example of such regression, on which I've spent a full work week of my time, was https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=551147.
>>
>> I'm tired to spend my time to do house keeping for others, and I don't see anyone else doing this work. I don't think this is fair.
>>
>> I would propose that committers that merge "mass changes" *must* do the work I do:
>>
>> 1) Check SDK build results after integration of mass changes and identify new failures
>> 2) Report bugs for new failures
>> 3) Identify offending commits and notify authors
>>
>> If this sounds as too much work, I would propose to re-think the "benefit" of mass changes.
>> If we continue in the same way as today, at some point in time the code is "fully optimized" but Eclipse is not usable anymore.
>>
>>
>> This actually brings one very significant problem - Mac and Windows builds are unstable for probably a year now (or even more!). This is long enough period for contributors to gain the habbit of just ignoring test results on Mac and Windows. I can't blame anyone for that (thanks Andrey for still checking them!).
>> IMHO is current failing tests on Mac and Windows tests can't/won't be fixed ASAP - these should be run only on Linux so seeing test failure finally means there is something to be looked at. As it should have always been.
>> Lakshmi, Niraj, as you're respective SWT port maintainers and the long failing tests are UI related: What is your opinion on this?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Andrey Loskutov
>>
>> Спасение утопающих - дело рук самих утопающих
>>
>> https://www.eclipse.org/user/aloskutov
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Alexander Kurtakov
>> Red Hat Eclipse Team
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> platform-dev mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
>> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev
>
>
>
> --
> Alexander Kurtakov
> Red Hat Eclipse Team
> _______________________________________________
> platform-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
> https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/platform-dev



--
Eclipse Platform project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH

Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (040) 5247 6322, Email: [hidden email], Web: http://www.vogella.com
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